Why Rep. Neveen El Tahri is optimistic

Neveen El Tahri: When I look at Dina, she is an academic, and she is somebody who this country would really be—

Patrick FitzPatrick: To have her come back from Sciences Po.

Neveen El Tahri: Absolutely. I mean, she’s the dean of research. 

And so she asked me if she can go to our archives.

It’s the first time I see Dina crying. Crying.

And she said, “I couldn’t believe that our history, I can see it right in front of me, and how it is being run. Neveen, I would like to run…”

Patrick FitzPatrick: She’d like to run the archives.

Neveen El Tahri: And she would know how.

And I said, “Is this really what you would want?”

She said, “Even if I’m not paid, I will come back to do that.”

Now that’s a big thing.

Patrick FitzPatrick: It is.

Neveen El Tahri: So if you have Dina like that, can you imagine how many Egyptians outside, each in the different areas, that can come back?

Patrick FitzPatrick: All over the world.

Neveen El Tahri: All over the world. So they will come back.

———

Hey everyone.

There’s this reality that stands out when I flip back through past issues of Enterprise or scroll our website. 

And it’s that there are two Egypts.

There’s the Egypt where investors are committing hundreds of millions — sometimes even billions — of dollars worth of future investment.

And then there’s the Egypt that too many people fear just won’t get things right. 

That we haven’t put a ruinous economic policy behind us and that a foreign currency crisis lies before us.

Now when I talk about foreign investors, I am talking about foreign strategic investors — people who are building car component factories. 

Textile plants. 

Fertilizer complexes. 

World-scale energy infrastructure — and plants to make components for that industry. 

There are mining exploration companies here taking a punt here on what could be a once-in-a-generation opportunity.

The thing that gets me is that foreign investors see opportunity here that we just … don’t. 

And funnily enough, it may have taken the war in the Gulf to open our community’s eyes to what the foreigners see: That we’ve gotten a hell of a lot right as a country — and that Egypt is actually full of opportunities. 

My guest today is Neveen El Tahri. Neveen is an icon of the business community — and voice for the private sector in Maglis El Nawab, the House of Representatives. 

Neveen was a pioneer who helped build the Egyptian banking and finance industry that all of you all know. She got her start in banking and then walked into a stock exchange where prices were still chalked on a board — when no other woman was working there and then she went on and built one of the country’s first private sector brokerages. 

Every woman working in Egyptian banking today owes Neveen a little. Every woman working in finance owes her their career.

The thing about her is that she's got this amazing bullshit detector. 

Something changed for her a few weeks ago though, after she sat through a closed-door briefing organized by one of the country’s most powerful institutions.

She walked in a skeptic, and came out believing that this time, we may really be on the verge of our own “Asian Tigers” moment.  That the “rise of the Pharaohs,” as she puts it, might just be upon us. 

So today I’m going to put every reason we have to despair on the table and I’m going to ask Neveen to take this argument apart, warts and all. 

I really want to believe. And that’s the conversation

Neveen, welcome to Making It.

Neveen El Tahri: A pleasure to be here with you.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Every foreign investor I meet is bullish on Egypt. And I’m not talking with the carry trade guys. I’m talking with the strategics — the people who are coming here to put shovels in the ground, build factories, build development shops, create jobs…

And then the same day I’ll talk to friends of ours, and they are grumpy about our prospects.

Same country, same day. What gives? Who’s right?

Neveen El Tahri: I think the investors are right.

I always believe that you have to think about things in a short term, medium term, and long term. And longer-term investors see what the country has, but also see the defaults that we have.

And when you look at us inside, you cannot help yourself but think: but we’ve seen this before, and we’ve been very optimistic. We’ve seen the years where we rise, and then all of a sudden we make all the wrong decisions and we fall.

This time, why do I believe that these long-term decisions are good is you see, changes are being done whilst everything around you is in flames, and all the countries around the world are going through a tough time. 

And here you are — you sit in the middle with this very strong base, with a population that has one of the highest IQs, even those that are uneducated. Egyptians are very highly adaptable and trained, once you give them a policy… seat them with some rules and regulations that are very well structured.

And when you look at it from anywhere, every Egyptian that has ever left Egypt has done so well outside. Why have they done so well outside? It’s because they were put into a structure, and that structure is clear to them.

So if you have that in a country, and if you have these investors coming in, they have their company laws, regulations, policies…

Patrick FitzPatrick: Policies, procedures, and structure.

Neveen El Tahri: And so you see, I mean, you’ve seen Coca-Cola here, Unilever — everybody has grown here. And every single businessman that goes outside and builds something always has his eye on coming to grow their companies in here.

So that’s why I think that investors look at the long term. And inside, we have the hope. I mean, that’s where I see the ability to maybe this time make it work.

Patrick FitzPatrick: You were not super optimistic even a few months ago. And you recently told me that you’re genuinely optimistic.

You sat in a closed-door briefing. You came out of that briefing with one of the most powerful institutions in the country that switched something inside you, made you see the map in a different way.

What can you tell us about that? What did you see in the room that the rest of us didn’t see?

Neveen El Tahri: Parliament sent us to this meeting with Al Raqaba Al Idareya. I always forget the name…

Patrick FitzPatrick: The Administrative Control.

Neveen El Tahri: With the Administrative Control Authority — and it is control authority which basically approves anything that ultimately comes out.

So that is a very credible entity. I’ve always known about it. I know that everything passes through there, but I’ve never really had the chance to see what it is it does inside.

It was a very small group who went to attend this closed meeting, and it started from talking about the authority itself and what its work is. And you realize the work that they have been doing for the past ten years. So it’s not something that’s…

Patrick FitzPatrick: It’s not new?

Neveen El Tahri: It’s not new.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Okay.

Neveen El Tahri: And the program itself had, first of all, the Minister of Foreign Affairs. So he talks about the overall, what’s happening around us.

And then you have the three ministers of the economic team, and then you have every single other industry come in.

So when you see all that in one place, and you see how it fits in a bigger plan — for me it was like a puzzle. From an external point of view, you look at that and you think, why is he doing that? Why is he doing that? Why is he doing that? And all of a sudden you’re there and you see that this puzzle is actually being put together.

The interesting thing is, not being put together in the future — but there’s a lot of work that is actually on the ground. So it’s already happening, and has happened over the years, but you have not seen it in one place and said, this is it.

And the digitization of everything. So you have this entity with, I think, 140 people. That’s it. And it is extremely secretive. So they’re not publicizing what is there. But all they care about is the outcome.

Patrick FitzPatrick: So what’s the strategy?

Neveen El Tahri: I don’t want to say look inside only — but looking inside so that we can export.

I mean, they teach us this in school. Our location, our location.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Our location.

Neveen El Tahri: But you know what? It is absolutely right. You are in the middle of everything, and you have every single agreement that you can actually—

Patrick FitzPatrick: COMESA… Name it.

Neveen El Tahri: Name it. Name it. And so to me, I think the strategy is how we look inside to serve everything outside too.

And with it, create our foreign currency, repay our debt, and most importantly, employ our people into these different sectors.

And again, that brings me back to highly trainable Egyptians. Just put them in the right place.

Patrick FitzPatrick: What I think is remarkable about what you’ve just said is that this was your takeaway from a forum organized by a division of the intelligence service — who is now talking about an investment case in the same way that our friends and colleagues, and you in your role as one of the mothers of entrepreneurs in Egypt, have been talking about for decades now. That the intelligence service is talking our language.

Neveen El Tahri: But I know how investors think. I don’t just want an investor to come and have a bad experience. I need them to actually know what they’re coming to do.

I always say capital is always scared, but it is called risk capital. It is called risk capital.

Patrick FitzPatrick: A hundred percent. For a reason.

Neveen El Tahri: For a reason. I mean, if you don’t take the risk, you’re not going to make the money. And the higher the risk, the higher the return.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Yeah.

That having been said — is that enough? Because you and I have been optimistic before.

Neveen El Tahri: When you look at it today, you see Europe is in deep, deep stress. The US still looks good, but a lot of changes will happen, because you have a rising competition from China, which is actually dormant in terms of what it says… 

Patrick FitzPatrick: Absolutely.

Neveen El Tahri: But yet it’s absolutely taking a…And I think the Ukraine war, Covid, and then Gaza, and then Iran — that’s from 2019, 2020 to date. 

Patrick FitzPatrick Through today. 

Neveen El Tahri: And it has really drained the economies. It has drained everybody.

And so when I look at Egypt, you have every single ingredient and item in terms of industries. I mean, you have gold that, you know, is always there. You have the oil, you have Suez Canal, you have the tourism, you have the people, you have the economy.

And I think GEM did something that created—

Patrick FitzPatrick: The Grand Egyptian Museum.

Neveen El Tahri: The Grand Egyptian Museum really brought back revisiting what it is, Egypt, in terms of that tourism. 

But yet with it came a lot of things. Because you have the roads today. You have so much of what has happened to make life easier.

Patrick FitzPatrick: The connectivity.

Neveen El Tahri: Exactly.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Linking the cities to the ports?

Neveen El Tahri: Exactly.

Patrick FitzPatrick: The second airport serving the museum, making it easier to get from point A to point B.

Neveen El Tahri: Exactly. And that is where money has been—

Patrick FitzPatrick: That’s where money has been spent.

Neveen El Tahri: And you have a number of unbelievable opportunities. And let me talk about it here.

You know, our saving rate has really gone, as a country, very low — from 6.1% to 1.2%, I think, or something.

When you look at it: how am I going to revisit that? You have an insurance industry that hasn’t even been—

Patrick FitzPatrick: Tools to mobilize—

Neveen El Tahri: You haven’t penetrated. You haven’t penetrated, and you have a good law that has been done. I mean, I was there at Parliament when we did the new law. 

And so insurance is an unbelievable — it’s sitting there.

Patrick FitzPatrick: It’s a massive opportunity.

Neveen El Tahri: Oh my God. I mean, it’s sitting there.

Patrick FitzPatrick: You want to start an insurance…?

Neveen El Tahri: Not me. Not me. But I’m definitely happy to see it, because that is going to be something.

And you have a number of interesting funds that are being created today in the real estate. 

So you have REITs. We love buildings and we love owning. So you know what? Looking at the laws that are being put in place and how we can do it — I’m hoping and praying that we get it right this time.

Patrick FitzPatrick: The war broke out in February in the Gulf, and the money here in Egypt ran for the exits, right? The pound took a hit, and the central bank did nothing. They let the pound slide. They let it serve as a shock absorber.

No one sent those quiet instructions that you bankers get on occasion in previous regimes, to go short or to sell your reserves. The interbank market functioned.

For somebody who’s never traded currency in their life before — for listeners out there who are not bankers, who don’t come from that world — walk me through why that’s the ballgame.

Neveen El Tahri: I think you’ve learned from your mistakes, and we’ve had a lot of these mistakes.

And I think this is where you see the good coordination between the Central Bank of Egypt and the Ministry of Finance. That role of each one of them made things happen correctly.

And I mean, when you look at the reserves, the reserves haven’t actually decreased. You’re seeing the reserves increase. The hot money is being treated differently than our real reserves.

So I think it’s, you know, like a parallel. It has actually worked perfectly well in terms of a comfort for the government, and for us, to feel that we can meet our commitments. And I think that’s one of the most important things that Egypt has always been very keen on, because…

Patrick FitzPatrick: How many months of cover do you have for essential imports?

Neveen El Tahri: Exactly.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Every politician worries about that. Do I have the rice? Do I have the wheat? Do I have the zeit [oil]?

Neveen El Tahri: As much as it’s not a good thing to be seeing the Egyptian pound devalue, [it] yet gives you the comfort — that we saw it go up to 55, and then it went down to 52.

And as we are looking at industrialization and how we can replace, to a great extent, imports, and helping investors — I mean, I see the new Minister of Industry, and I’m really impressed that he’s talking like us, as a really private sector would.

And one of the most interesting things is seeing the Qarya Montaga [the producing village]. So it’s a village that is actually manufacturing whatever it has — if it’s in weaving, if it’s in whatever. So you’re creating not just jobs, but you’re also creating things that you can export at the end of the day.

So I think when you look at all those things, you see that — again, I come back to the puzzle that I’ve been seeing — and saying, okay, we are on the right track, and we can create the foreign currency. Except that I have to make sure that I have the right incentives to enable these places and these ideas. And how do you do it?

Patrick FitzPatrick: I want to talk about industrial policy for a minute, and to be super reductionist about it, there’s two schools of thought.

There’s one that says governments should declare a limited set of priorities. These industries — those are our champions. We’re not disadvantaging others, but these are the ones that are getting the resources.

And then there’s another school that says the state should not choose industries, full stop. The markets should.

We in Egypt have for decades said we want to choose winners, but then we make a laundry list.

How do you view that as a parliamentarian? And then, what do you think our priority sector should be?

Neveen El Tahri: I mean, if you ask me personally, my preference always is to say tourism is my low-hanging fruit. It actually employs more than 7 million people, direct and indirect.

I mean, that’s an easy way of thinking of how I can build around just one industry. And when I talk about the tourism sector, I actually talk about all the other sectors.

Because if you take any tourist coming to Egypt, the first thing he’s going to see is going to be the airports. So hence you’re actually talking about the development of airports. This is his first impression he gets of the country.

You go outside, you’re going to use the roads. So the roads are there. And then you’re going to go to the hotel — the experience of the hotel management. And hence you have the five, seven-star hotels, but you also have the opportunity for the Airbnb, and and and and. And then you’re going to have the tourist sites, and then you’re going to have the products that he will buy in order to take back home.

So what are these products? I don’t want them to be made in China. I want them to be made in Tanta, in Damietta, in Minya.

So when I say the tourism sector, I actually mean the whole country, because it does cover everything. It’s not just…

Patrick FitzPatrick: From food to manufacture.

Neveen El Tahri: Exactly. It’s just as though I have a holding company, and that holding company says tourism. It segregates into all those companies, and each company has a focused industry that it is looking at.

And so that, to me, is what my Egypt is. Because when you talk about Egypt, what is the first thing that anyone in the world says about Egypt?

Patrick FitzPatrick: Beyond the pyramids?

Neveen El Tahri: Exactly.

Patrick FitzPatrick: I mean, it all starts there.

Neveen El Tahri: That’s it. That’s exactly it. Take it from there.

Now, is the government looking at that? I think what they’re looking at is exports.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Tourism is a form of service export, actually.

Neveen El Tahri: Exactly.

Patrick FitzPatrick: But we also want to manufacture.

Neveen El Tahri: Exactly.

I have an export strategy that I need USD 100 billion of exports by year 2030, and I think that is where the industrial policy is coming in. It’s how do I incentivize the different industries that are going to bring in the money?

So I look at what is it that is bringing in these exports today, other than the oil, and the Suez Canal, and even tourism. 

It is actually food.

So you have to look at the agricultural sector, and the agriculture sector is one of the sectors that has the highest employment.

So you look at that sector, and with it — once you talk about that sector, you talk about the energy, because you need the energy in order to make it work. And you look at water, and so you have…

Patrick FitzPatrick: Desalination.

Neveen El Tahri: So these three, to me, are coupled together. So if you want to do the exports on the food and agri, that’s what I’m going to look at.

But with it also is the value chain. Instead of me just having raw exports of fruits, or—

Patrick FitzPatrick: We have great fruits, great tomatoes.

Neveen El Tahri: Unbelievable.

Patrick FitzPatrick: The best. But we don’t want to export raw tomatoes.

Neveen El Tahri: Exactly.

Patrick FitzPatrick: You want to process them. You want to turn them into a food product that is then sold to the Gulf, to Africa.

Neveen El Tahri: When you think about the value chain, you’re going to need the freezing, you need drying.

But when you’re also looking at agriculture, it’s how do you make sure that you feed your people? 

If grain takes a lot of water, I don’t really have to plant grain. But then again, I’m not the expert. Why don’t I import the grain? But with the imports of grain, what is it that I can do again?

Patrick FitzPatrick: Again, we don’t need to be self-sufficient in everything. We can choose.

Neveen El Tahri: Exactly. I love the idea of the new minister saying…

Patrick FitzPatrick: Industrial clusters.

Neveen El Tahri: Exactly.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Yeah.

Neveen El Tahri: And I think these clusters are going to make a big difference. I mean, we look at Morocco — they did the car…

Patrick FitzPatrick: Cars and avionics.

So you like choosing winners that have deep supply chains?

Neveen El Tahri: Yes.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Where you can have added value?

Neveen El Tahri: Yes.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Where you can serve a domestic market but also export.

Neveen El Tahri: And that’s partnership. It’s just like a marriage. You have to have two that tango.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Nice.

We see a lot of really interesting foreign investment coming in from Europe. We see a lot of interesting Turkish stuff coming in, from shirt makers and textiles to Bosch. But a huge chunk of this is Chinese coming in.

Our friends at HSBC were telling us late last year that local governments in China have — a crazy target — It’s not how much FDI did you attract to your local district — it’s how many of your companies headquartered in your local district are going abroad and investing abroad, as part of a China Plus One model.

We’re on that list. This China Plus One thing is based on the thesis that they need to preserve market access. They want access to the Gulf, Africa, Europe. We’re very well suited to that.

But is this investment sticky?

Neveen El Tahri: Why wouldn’t it be? I mean, I think if they’re going to come in, who are they going to employ?

Patrick FitzPatrick: Egyptians, fundamentally.

Neveen El Tahri: And as you employ Egyptians, even if they leave, you will have the knowhow within. And so anything that comes in with its knowhow, it’s extremely interesting.

And again, I always like to stress on the Chase… my learning as a banker.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Tell me about Chase. Why are you referencing that?

Neveen El Tahri: Well, I mean, when I went into Chase in 1980, they’d been around for five years, and it was the first foreign bank to come into Egypt. And they had a strategy that they would, within a certain period of time, be handing over all the management to local Egyptians. 

They invest in you.

I’ll give my personal example. We are all educated in the same credit course, and then we are assigned to different industries after we finish the course. And I would always be sent to marketing.

And when Chase was exiting, and it was going to be totally with the National Bank of Egypt, what happened was, I was handling the petroleum sector, which had 92 companies. I knew everything about petroleum, I mean, from the ground up.

And then when Chase is leaving — Chase is big on petroleum internationally — I was sent to market myself, to not lose the companies when Chase was leaving. So you see, they…

Patrick FitzPatrick: They were planning ahead.

Neveen El Tahri: They knew.

Patrick FitzPatrick: They invested in you.

Neveen El Tahri: They invested in me. And when Chase left, we only lost two companies of our 90 companies. And it became CIB.

And as you transfer knowhow in whatever industry, you will know how to use it well. And I think whoever comes in—

Patrick FitzPatrick: The Chinese, the Turks, the Europeans…

Neveen El Tahri: Whatever. I mean, you are there, you are going to employ the people, you’re going to create value. And as you create value in those people, you are creating wealth. You’re creating on the ground, as opposed to them being outside and making the money to transfer back to Egypt.

And one of our industries is actually to export our people, too.

Patrick FitzPatrick: I remember a couple of years ago, when Hassan El-Khatib was still minister, he was on stage with us at the forum, and he ran a live poll of the 550 people who were in the audience.

“How many of you think you pay 25% taxes?” Almost no hands went up. 

“How many of you think that your effective tax rate is closer to 35%?” A few hands went up.

He got to sort of 50, 55 before everybody in the room had their hands up.

What do you think the effective tax rate is here, and what are the implications of that for the business community?

Neveen El Tahri: That’s a very difficult question, because I think what is happening is we’re seeing a lot of redesign in order to be able to answer that question in exactly what it is. Because you cannot start a business without knowing what your tax rate is. Honestly, you can’t.

And I think the fees and commissions and whatever is around the tax rate is what is really a burden on whichever investor comes in.

And that’s where I’m seeing Ahmed Kouchouk. This is my second round in Parliament, so I’ve seen him now as minister. And from the beginning of this term, which is January to date, I’ve seen him probably almost every time we’re in Parliament with something new, that he is actually giving us an incentive — that you may not see as an incentive, but it is the correction of a lot of things that are there.

So I may not have the answer now, but I know that it’s being in the — how do you say it? — Odet el ena’ash [resuscitation room / ICU].

Patrick FitzPatrick: So you see a day where an investor will know.

Neveen El Tahri: Absolutely. And closer, closer than we think.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Now, will it happen in a way that closes out avenues for the tax inspector to want something extra?

Neveen El Tahri: Absolutely. And I see that now. The conversation is about the tax guy — and how you can incentivize the tax guy not to be wanting to put just any haphazard number, or some kind of corruption.

So even that is being discussed now, as a parliamentarian. But I can see it there.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Is this building on the backbone of the e-invoice system and all the digitization?

Neveen El Tahri: Absolutely. When you look at this e-invoicing, it actually brings in everybody, whether you like it or you don’t. It’s also bringing incentivisation into the informal sector.

Patrick FitzPatrick: To come into the economy.

Neveen El Tahri: Exactly. So I think even the informal sector is going to want to be part of it as we go along, for them to be comfortable. Because a lot of the industries in SMEs are too worried that, oh my God, I’m going to have the taxes come after me. So let me stay, you know, taht el selem [under the stairs / informal]. I’d much rather be there.

Patrick FitzPatrick: It’s not an unfounded worry, to want to hide under the stairs.

Neveen El Tahri: What is it that will make them come? In order for them to take more of the incentives that this country is going to be doing, more of the businesses that are there.

And again, I come back to the puzzle that I’m seeing, when you look at the industries per village, and I would learn to export. And then when I’m exporting, I’m being given back this return.

I mean, there’s so much that can happen.

Patrick FitzPatrick: By putting the pieces of that puzzle together.

What are two or three things, in your view, the government is getting right? And what are a couple of things where they need to improve their approach, from a policy point of view?

Neveen El Tahri: What I think they’re getting right is choosing the right people.

Patrick FitzPatrick: To sit at the cabinet table.

Neveen El Tahri: Yeah.

Not everybody, of course, but at least they’re bringing the main components of it. And I call our president the maestro, because everything does go through that maestro. And if that maestro has the right notes in front of him — which I feel he does.

Patrick FitzPatrick: So you see them as the composers.

Neveen El Tahri: Exactly.

When you start the business — and again, you learn as you go, and then you start choosing what it is that will make this business grow. So it has a sequence, where you take it from a baby and you grow it. 

At a certain point of time, you give the business to who you trust, especially when you start making money. You want people that you trust more than people that have the exact knowhow.

And then once that is there, and you’re seeing the growth, you want the right people that have the knowhow and have the ability to take us to a real—

Patrick FitzPatrick: To the next level.

Neveen El Tahri: Exactly.

So I think where we are today is that. So I can see that our maestro can see that. Again that’s my feel and part of my optimism is, it’s no longer about who you just trust. It’s about, I’m there — let me now take it to the next level.

Patrick FitzPatrick: That’s a big statement, because that implies that there’s a level of trust in the private sector.

Neveen El Tahri: I think so.

And I think it comes back to Wathiqat Al Milkeya [the State Ownership Policy Document] that we worked on a couple of years ago. We are seeing private sector actually coming back in, but not to the extent that we would want it to. But we’re there.

Patrick FitzPatrick: I think it’s coming back.

Neveen El Tahri: And there’s a second version of that document that is coming out now. And for me, that is exactly what I mean when I’m saying you’re seeing a business that grows.

What is going wrong? Again, you need to have clear strategy. So when I talk about the puzzle, I want this puzzle to be seen by everybody. I think it’s time for us to say, this is the industry I want.

Patrick FitzPatrick: We have to be really clear about what our economic policy is.

Neveen El Tahri: And clear to everybody, so that it’s easy for an investor to say, okay, one, two, three, four, five. I can see it as clear as day.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Now, that implies also — if you’re trying to appeal to investors, and I don’t know that this is a message for our core listenership as much as it is for any policymaker who may be listening — investors want to see policy continuity. 

The policy cannot change next week, next month, or next year. And ideally not in the next decade.

Neveen El Tahri: And you know what? That’s exactly what I’m seeing happening. And when I look at the tax, they are saying that it will not change for the next five years. I think that is exactly what I’m seeing.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Yeah Kouchouk has been really good at signaling that stuff. I will give him credit for that. Big time. 

You said that the private sector isn’t coming as fast as maybe we’d like to see. I think that’s a fair statement. 

Why?

Neveen El Tahri: They want to see the optimism I’m talking about. They want to see it on paper. Signed and sealed. Which I definitely would want to see.

But again, capital is what? Risk capital. If I’m—

Patrick FitzPatrick: Isn’t that the reason why we talk about first mover advantage?

Neveen El Tahri: Exactly. And if I look back at history and see the companies that have come into Egypt a long time ago, and where they are today in Egypt and outside of Egypt — I mean, that’s statement enough.

Patrick FitzPatrick: If you could change one rule, one law, one clause in the executive regulations of any act, what is the one thing you would change?

Neveen El Tahri: Government should only be in businesses that are for the people.

Patrick FitzPatrick: When we come back, we’re going to talk about privatization.

I love that. That’s a perfect transition.

———

Patrick FitzPatrick: In April, the government temporarily listed six companies. In the time since, we’ve seen ten petroleum companies temporarily listed, with promises that they will start trading in the fourth quarter of this year.

These listings are not real. No shares have changed hands. No private investor has come into the capital structure. I find this to be theater.

Am I right, or am I wrong?

Neveen El Tahri: I think you’re wrong.

To be listed in itself requires an unbelievable amount of transparency. So you have stage one of transparency that is there. But you don’t have, at the back of it: what is it that I’m ready to give out? What is the percentage I want to retain?

The minute you are on the market, you worry who is going to be the owners of these shares — especially at a time where we see the conflicts around us. You cannot put a restriction on who owns.

Patrick FitzPatrick: If an Israeli company is going to come here, they’re going to come here and buy…

Neveen El Tahri: Exactly. I mean, already, because you have the Emiratis there, you think, oh, the Emiratis are going to give it to… No, no, no. Emiratis are coming in with land that is on our land. You don’t have to worry about that. It’s not going to take it or go anywhere.

Patrick FitzPatrick: You can’t float away Ras El Hekma.

Neveen El Tahri: Exactly.

But when you’re on the exchange, you need a lot of other things that are there. So what you’re actually doing is, you are clearing a lot of the companies that you think are the right companies to have.

And as you’re clearing them — list them first, and then have a strategy. Say petroleum sector, I’m going to float 20%. That other sector, I’m going to float whatever percent.

So in my opinion, it’s not really just theater. It’s the preparation of how to take it forward from there. That is my personal viewing of what it is, and I’m very happy with that.

Patrick FitzPatrick: So do you think real work is being done?

Neveen El Tahri: Absolutely.

Patrick FitzPatrick: It’s not just a basma on a piece of paper — khetem el nesr w khalas [the eagle seal and that’s it]?

Neveen El Tahri: I don’t think so.

And I think what makes it, to me, look like it is all in preparation, is I think the Prime Minister has now somebody with him that is actually looking at the companies, and how many companies there are.

I mean, I sit on a number of investment committees of Bank Nasser, for instance. It’s difficult to even get what they own. You’ve taken away the companies that are Qitaa El A’am [the Public Enterprise Sector] and put it under the umbrella of another ministry. And you have the NIB.

Patrick FitzPatrick: the National Investment Bank.

Neveen El Tahri: All this is again part of the preparations, preparations, preparations. But it is public relationship, too. It is part of a show. I mean, these companies are worth a lot of money. That would bring our market capitalization into a huge amount of value.

Patrick FitzPatrick: You and I agree on a lot of stuff, but I’m going to challenge you on that one. 

How much are they really worth?

Aren’t there companies that have no worth, that are not viable? Companies that have ignored the technical accounting of assets versus liabilities? There’s no there there. There’s no business model. There’s nothing.

Neveen El Tahri: They’re not listed.

Patrick FitzPatrick: They’re not listed, but they exist.

Neveen El Tahri: Well, they exist is something else.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Isn’t there something to say that the civilian side of government can make a decision that we are going to get out of certain companies, we’re going to shut down certain things?

That funding a nonviable company — it’s not an activity of a welfare state. A welfare state does something else. If the concern is welfare, why can’t we say that there are companies that we as a state own that may not deserve to live?

Neveen El Tahri: This is public opinion. You’re watching the public opinion. I totally agree with you, by the way. A hundred percent.

If you have an unviable industry, or not industry, an unviable company — that’s the right thing to do.

But look at what happened to Al Hadid we Solb [Iron and Steel]. I mean, this is a company that’s draining you, and you don’t even have the money to pay the employees there. And then the whole country went into, they’re selling this and they’re doing that, and why on earth… They don’t understand. But it’s the right thing to do. It is the right thing to do, when there is a company that is not viable.

I always go back to myself. I remember in 2001, when the market crashed and everything happened, and I had 107 employees. And we were doing very well. And then what did I have to do? I decided, you know what, I’m going to give the severance to everybody that was there, and just float. So what I did was…

Patrick FitzPatrick: Reduced headcount, and you made it minimally viable.

Neveen El Tahri: 25 people remained. And these 25 people, I gave them half their salary, but 100% of their severance. I said, one year down the road, if things are okay, we’re going to come back. If not… It came back.

If that’s the private sector, that’s how you think, because that’s the right thing to do. And it came back, and it just boomed, because I retained it and I was there.

But when you think about how the public opinion — and today with social media it’s even worse, because today with social media you can really be saying things that are… I mean, there’s also AI. So you don’t know what is it that—

Patrick FitzPatrick: Is real and…

Neveen El Tahri: What’s real and what’s not real.

So, as easy as we say it as people who understand investing and analyzing — it’s not that easy to make that decision. Hence comes my positiveness of saying, if I create the jobs and these clusters, and these clusters are able to pay for these jobs, instead of one job in the morning which they just sign off to and then they go to the second job — if you’re able to do that, then you know what? Just find them the other alternative.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Do policymakers not have a responsibility to create those alternatives?

Neveen El Tahri: Private sector has. But then, I’m an entrepreneur.

I have to say, it’s easier said than done, because I know how difficult it is to start anything or change anything. You really, really need clarity when you’re making that change, for people to accept it. And I don’t think we know how to do that well.

Even as private sector, we need to really be much more giving. And it takes more time and it takes more capital, but it’s doable.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Okay, I’ve got another problem with privatization. I’ve got a laundry list of complaints about privatization.

But I feel that the government doesn’t understand that nobody wants to be a minority partner with the state.

I think you, who were instrumental in the sovereign fund’s birth and governance — I think the whole team there did some really important work. But the private sector doesn’t necessarily want to be in bed with the government.

Neveen El Tahri: Does the government understand? Even if they understand, they still are not ready to give in. Partly because, again, public opinion.

And I think it’s the way you need to structure the deals that is more important. And I’ll give you the example of the heritage hotels we gave. We didn’t actually sell shares. There was no sale of shares. But yet everybody is talking about, we gave away to Talat Mustafa, and then from Talat Mustafa the Emiratis, and the Emiratis means that it is beyond that.

And I think it was a capital increase. And a capital increase means that you are actually growing what you already have.

Patrick FitzPatrick: There’s fresh money coming in.

Neveen El Tahri: Fresh money. And that fresh money is going to take us from bringing in a revenue of 100,000 — whatever that amount is — you’re going to have 500,000. And with that 500,000, you have taxes that are going to be paid back to the country. And as the taxes come in, you’re going to be able to give much more public service.

When I say about the structure, how do you structure it? There are certain assets that you are going to be doing a 55-year—

Patrick FitzPatrick: Lease agreement.

Neveen El Tahri: Lease agreement, like the ports. And there are other structures where you can say, okay, I’m privatizing the management for the 20%.

So there are structures that you can actually create that can make you go ahead with your privatization in a format that is acceptable, and can grow on it.

So there’s a lot of homework. And because sovereign funds usually have money and not assets — we have a very different format of a sovereign fund. We have assets and no money. So how do you work around bundling that in a format where you can actually make the best out of it, and thinking of it for the generations as opposed to a short term?

So when everybody is saying, but they didn’t do anything — it’s for the future generations. It’s not for today.

So it’s not that the government doesn’t understand. The government doesn’t have the knowhow. 

But private sector has.

Patrick FitzPatrick: I guess my fundamental frustration is that you can look back at the last 35 years and say Egyptians created a financial services industry from nothing. From air and sand.

Ahmed Heikal brought back the Yellow Pages and called the people who were in bold type — because if you were a fund manager and you could pay to have your name in bold type in the phone book, it meant you were big.

You guys created a regional champion like EFG Hermes. You have thousands of talented people who know this industry inside out and backward.

Why not just give it all to them to fix?

Neveen El Tahri: You can give it piecemeal.

Well, I think the sovereign fund was that. The dream team we had — I mean, I headed the investment committee there. I must say I was very impressed. And they are people who are the private sector, coming from the private sector, faced with assets that are being given to them. Assets that everybody thinks is their own.

So you’re given downtown. Wow. I saw a strategy being put by the team that is unbelievable.

What is it that makes them not see it? I mean, I look at the downtown today and it is being refurbished in a way that it is an unbelievable turnaround. But it had private sector that are doing it. Al Ismaelia.

And when I look at what the sovereign fund did with the buildings that were left behind, they have a very good strategy. We have French people, French college and university coming in, and a hostel for the French. So they have something that’s there.

But to do that, you had to clean so much up.

Patrick FitzPatrick: We have a privatization unit led by Hashem reporting to the Prime Minister. We have a Sovereign Fund of Egypt. I think you are having a debate this afternoon in the House about Mostaqbal Misr doing something that smells kind of sovereign-fund adjacent.

Do we need so many different centers of gravity working on the problem?

Neveen El Tahri: I don’t think so. Again, it comes back to: am I going to privatize Mostaqbal Misr from on top, or am I not privatizing the management?

I think that is what you need, and it’s part of the learning, again. And in looking at the changes we’re seeing, I’m comfortable that it will be taken in the right direction. Now, I’m hoping that it will be.

I need the investor that you say does not want to come in at 20% ownership, and with the government or government-related in whichever format — I want them to feel that this is a privatization in terms of what assets we have. 

And the assets are unbelievable. And you don’t have just one asset. You have so much. Masha’Allah, the cake is huge.

Patrick FitzPatrick: What’s the one that you’d love to sell?

Neveen El Tahri: The airports.

Patrick FitzPatrick: That’s huge.

Neveen El Tahri: Yeah.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Why the airports?

Neveen El Tahri: Because it’s the front facing of anybody who comes in. And because I love—

Patrick FitzPatrick: Tying back to your tourism thesis?

Neveen El Tahri: Exactly.

Patrick FitzPatrick: All right, we’re going to take a break. And when we come back, we’re going to talk about the military and the economy.

Neveen El Tahri: That’s a tough one.

Patrick FitzPatrick: That’s a tough one. That’s a tough one.

———

Patrick FitzPatrick: We’ve talked about privatization, but in talking about privatization we have talked about the sale of civil assets — assets owned by the civil state, not by the military.

And there’s an argument that arms of the state, the military and the Interior Ministry in particular, play roles in the economy that are not clear to us. That they provide subsidized goods and services to the poor, particularly outside of urban centers, and in the Delta and Upper Egypt. That make the whole debate about the “military and the economy” really more nuanced than a lot of us give it credit for being.

They’ve helped stabilize food prices. They’ve helped ensure food security through crises. The rural poor disproportionately benefit from subsidized bread, from cheap protein, new roads, water infrastructure. 58 million people benefiting from village upgrades largely carried out through these organs of state.

Setting aside the opacity problem — does the state add something to the economy that the private sector can’t?

Neveen El Tahri: I think the timing that they came in was a very crucial timing. It was a timing where everybody was extremely scared of what is happening, what is going to happen. So I think their coming in was very important. It played the role, it grew, it gave them reason why they are making money, so that they can actually spend it on whatever they need inside.

So when you think about them coming into things like the pasta factory — why are they in the whatever factories? Well, they do have a huge community that is actually paid by them, inside them. So you would think that this is how they are retaining what is needed for them inside.

But as it has grown, and grown tremendously, it has created a lot of wealth. And hence it’s difficult to leave wealth behind — unless it is clear where it is going and how it is going to go.

So I think it’s a very hierarchical institution, and that hierarchy requires certain rules and regulations. So it comes from on top. And that on top is today telling you that we need to see the privatization. We need to see the private sector there. We have a strategy.

So from my viewing, if that on top says that, it’s how to implement it and make sure that it is implementable.

So I hear it. I don’t see it. 

Like my optimism — I think the seeing part comes back to a transparency of what strategy they’re going to be putting forward. And we’re told that they are ready to leave, and they are ready to give it to the private sector, through either IPOs or listings, just listings, or…

I really believe that they are ready. But how, again — and the format, and everything comes back to the thinking of how it is going to be done. Because that revenue today is even more important than yesterday.

I mean, we are going to be losing a lot of assistance — external assistance — be it from wherever. As military, I imagine that the importance of generating your own revenue, needed to keep your military, to keep us all safe — it’s the right thing to do. But how to do it, and through what venue, it’s important to analyze equally as you’re analyzing the privatization or anything.

They have their own budgets. These budgets — are they known? Even at Parliament, we’re seeing that there are things that are coming in to talk about the financing of that. So you know what?

Patrick FitzPatrick: Really? They’re talking about that with you?

Neveen El Tahri: Yeah. So you know, something is…

Patrick FitzPatrick: It’s a change.

Neveen El Tahri: It’s a change.

Patrick FitzPatrick: That has always been a very opaque budget.

Neveen El Tahri: And to what extent will it be public? I don’t think it should be public.

It’s very much like when a company goes on a listing and has competitors — do you want the competitors to know what you are making, and how many…? Why would a company like Orange buy back its shares and not be on the exchange? So that Telecom Egypt—

Patrick FitzPatrick: And I don’t want the headache anymore?

Neveen El Tahri: Exactly. And I want to compete on my own turf.

So do I really want the military to be too public? I actually don’t. 

Why? Because I have a lot of other countries who would love to have Egypt as part of… from the sea to the river. And I’m not going to allow it.

Patrick FitzPatrick: So we’re back to, we are in the center of…

Neveen El Tahri: Absolutely, absolutely.

So I would like it not to be in what private sector can do.

Patrick FitzPatrick: So you don’t want to see direct competition between the private sector and the military.

Neveen El Tahri: In the industries that are private sector run.

Patrick FitzPatrick: What is the private sector run industry?

Neveen El Tahri: I don’t need to be in fish and chicken. But I can have private sector companies with a clear takeoff agreement — 20% of your livestock is going to come to me.

Again, it’s all about structuring, in terms of an investment.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Do you think you can structure a win-win? 

Neveen El Tahri: Absolutely.

Patrick FitzPatrick: When we were preparing for the show, you and I talked about your own daughter in Paris asking, you know, when is it the time to come home?

Goldman Sachs still predicts that Egypt will be the seventh largest economy on Earth by 2075.

Neveen El Tahri: ’75?

Patrick FitzPatrick: Right, 2075. We’re not going to be around for that, but, you know 2075.

Is there a change coming? Is now the time to come home? We thought maybe 2011, a lot of people, was the time to come home.

Neveen El Tahri: Yes. Yeah.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Is it now time to come home? And what tells you that it is? What’s going to bring Dina and Tino home?

Neveen El Tahri: The same clarity that everybody wants to see. I think it’s the ease of doing business.

When I look at Tino — Tino is very much like myself, and he likes to grow companies. He brought Uber from scratch to Egypt, and brought it in the whole region. And now he’s with another remittances company that is growing, TapTap Send, in Dubai.

And life is easy in Dubai. It’s equally here, but it’s not as easy as what it looks like there. But it has its pros and cons there. I see it much more cons.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Their grandmother’s here.

Neveen El Tahri: Again, let me see that the business is easy to do and we can grow it from here. So that is in the progress. So if I’m talking about when — I think two years from now, it’s going to be 100% clear. A 100% to that extent, I believe.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Tino, you hear that, buddy? You’re coming home.

Neveen El Tahri: When I look at Dina — she’s an academic. And she is somebody who this country would really be—

Patrick FitzPatrick: To have her come back from Sciences Po.

Neveen El Tahri: Her PhD, and all her work is monopoly and antitrust. I mean, she’s the dean of research. She’s writing a book on cotton, from colonization and…

So she asked me if she can go to our archives. And I couldn’t know where is the archives. I asked. And apparently you have to have approval to go. So I got special approval to have her go.

It’s the first time I see Dina crying. And she said, “I couldn’t believe that our history, I can see it right in front of me, and how it is being run. Neveen, I would like to run…”

Patrick FitzPatrick: She would like to run the archives and make it available, open to scholars.

Neveen El Tahri: And she would know how. And I said, “Is this really what you would want?” She said, “Even if I’m not paid, I will come back to do that.”

Now that’s a big thing.

Patrick FitzPatrick: It is.

Neveen El Tahri: So if you have Dina like that — can you imagine how many Egyptians outside, each in the different areas, that can come back?

Patrick FitzPatrick: All over the world.

Neveen El Tahri: So they will come back.

Patrick FitzPatrick: I’m switching now to you as a human. I know you’re not comfortable with these questions, but I’m going to make you answer a few of them.

You were on the upswing as a banker. You were one of very few women at the time, building a career. You were running the petroleum sector for what became the most influential, largest, most profitable private sector bank in the country. With all the might of Chase behind you — Chase's global network, right? You could have traveled the world with these guys.

And you left, to go to a stock exchange that had been closed for 60 years. You’re the only woman in the building.

What the hell were you thinking?

Neveen El Tahri: I never have a real plan ahead. When I came back to Egypt, I was 17 years old, and I couldn’t even speak Arabic.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Because her family was foreign service.

Neveen El Tahri: So when I came back, he [my father] insisted that I don’t go to the AUC — and my Arabic is horrible. And so I went to economics and political science. Everything is in Arabic.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Cairo University.

Neveen El Tahri: Cairo University.

Patrick FitzPatrick: The elite university, and the school for foreign policy and economics.

Neveen El Tahri: He said, this is your last chance to learn Arabic. And he was right.

Patrick FitzPatrick: A wise man.

Neveen El Tahri: And I was actually offered the job. And I said, no, no, no, no, I will work for a bank. It was the top thing that you would do then.

So I went in. I want to go to the credit department. And they said, no, there’s no credit department, come in as a teller. For how long? Well, when the credit course comes back, you can go.

So I did actually work for a year as a teller, which I so appreciate, because you learn from the bottom up. And a year later the course starts without me.

And I was so upset. So I said, you know what, I’m leaving tomorrow. So the secretary says, you know what, I’ll get you an appointment with the managing director. The managing director? I was 21 years old. Just stay after hours today and you’re going to come up.

So I go up, and he sits me down and says, can you tell me about yourself? And so I talk. And he says, “Tomorrow you’re coming in the administration of the credit department for a year.” And I said, but there are no boxes. He said, I’ll create the box.

Since then, I tell anyone young: if you don’t ask, you don’t get. You have to ask. Even if it’s a no, you ask.

And so that was my beginning. Credit course passed. Most of the men that finished the credit course would go to Kuwait or anywhere. So we were left with all women.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Really?

Neveen El Tahri: Really. So the bank was all women, because the men left.

So I’ve been reporting to women all my life. And I learned what not to do by being a woman myself, which I think is one of the greatest things I learned.

And I ultimately bumped with my last — Allah yerhamha [may her soul rest in peace] — and I decided, you know what, I’m gonna leave. And I was assistant general manager, which was one of four.

Patrick FitzPatrick: That’s a grand title in banking.

Neveen El Tahri: And then I left. And I said, okay, I have two kids. I’ve never had a break — even when I had the children, only 40 days, and that was it at that time. I’m gonna do something. I don’t know what to do.

So I started my own thing. I love flowers, so I would dry flowers and put them in pots. And there was this shop there, and I mean, I have nothing. And then I decided I would take the children, the two, to Munich. I mean, I did everything that I wanted to do.

I came back. The kids were kissing my hand. “Please leave.” 

Patrick FitzPatrick: La! No way.

Neveen El Tahri: “Please go back to work. Please go back to—”

Patrick FitzPatrick: You were suddenly omnipresent in their lives.

Neveen El Tahri: Exactly.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Yeah.

Neveen El Tahri: What are you doing? What did you do today? Show me your homework. Things I’ve never done before.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Never asked before.

Neveen El Tahri: So I decided, you know what, let me do some consultancy. And then Hassan Heikal calls me a number of times to ask…

Patrick FitzPatrick: Who was at EFG at the time?

Neveen El Tahri: No, he was still at the bank.

And he would call me and say, somebody wants to hire me from the tourism industry. And I would say, Hassan, I’m a banker. What am I going to do in the tourism? And he was heading the tourism sector.

And so he invites me to lunch one time, and I go, and I find one of the companies that wants to hire me.

Patrick FitzPatrick: So Hassan had basically set you up on a blind date?

Neveen El Tahri: Absolutely. It was interesting, because it taught me how to run my own company — because I was given the chance to learn in somebody else’s company.

Patrick FitzPatrick: So you learned how to plan strategy, operations, finance, everything together?

Neveen El Tahri: Yeah. And whilst I was there, I get a phone call from my then brother-in-law. He says, “Neveen, I want you to come in for an exam at the Financial Service Authority.”

I said, “why?” 

He said, “I’m going to open a brokerage firm, and I need a license, but I don’t have the ability to take the license. So I’m going to take the license with your name. You have the—”

Patrick FitzPatrick: What?

Neveen El Tahri: I swear. “You have the CV and everything, that they will bring you the license.”

And I said, “come on, I don’t — how am I going to…?” He said, “just come. Just come.”

So I go in to Abdel Hamid Ibrahim Allah yerhamo [may his soul rest in peace], with Ahmed [then brother in law] there. And Ahmed is not allowed to talk, so he asks many questions… three hours, and I was being drained.

As we are leaving, he tells me, “if you get the license, it’s because you have a very good reputation.”

I take the license — and the only woman. Ali El Tahri, he’s my second cousin: all their exams were ten, 15, 30 minutes. But I had three hours.

Patrick FitzPatrick: You had three hours.

Neveen El Tahri: So I would go to the stock exchange, because only the licensed MDs are the ones that are allowed to. And I would do the work. And then I go back to the tourism company.

Patrick FitzPatrick: You were still at the tourism company.

Neveen El Tahri: Yeah, I go back to the tourism company, and Ahmed would take care of it.

And then I resigned from the tourism company, because I need to be in the company. n three months, me and my then brother-in-law clashed, because I come from a very organized institution.

So I was left alone with the company. And that was it.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Because the license was in your name?

Neveen El Tahri: Absolutely. They wouldn’t give him the license.

And so sometimes I say, you don’t plan things, but you find yourself there. So I had to put a strategy. I decided I would not work with individuals. I would work only with institutions. And that was it.

Patrick FitzPatrick: I’m a little bit hesitant to ask this, but I have to ask: did you know you were doing something special?

Like, did you have that sense inside that, I’m literally the only bloody woman in the room and I’m doing this? Did you know you were breaking open an industry for the thousands of women who followed?

Neveen El Tahri: Because I come from a family where three girls — and my father never felt that I needed a brother. I mean, it never really hit me that I’m a woman. I’m just working.

When did it hit me? Years later.

I mean, the first thing I did when I became on my own is I wanted to partner with a bank. I’m a credit officer. I could see that the capital was very wrong to the industry that I was working in.

So I called a friend of mine who was at the EAB, which was the second largest bank at the time.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Egyptian American Bank. Now, Credit Agricole.

Neveen El Tahri: Hello. Who is your managing director? Gary Jones. Can you take an appointment? Called me back: come now.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Now?

Neveen El Tahri: Now. I go to Gary Jones. I said, come in. Buy 20%. And that’s how I became Delta EAB.

I was the first person to have a bank as a partner. And it gave me a lot of confidence. So you really were building something with the institutional mind that I had.

And the first thing that I did was, I wanted to have branches. But I never got one single operation at the branch. So I said, EAB, what is wrong with you? They said, maybe we need it to be asset management. I said, okay, so how do we do asset management?

So they brought in American Express Bank. So American Express Bank then took another 20%. So I became diluted with another 20%, and had the first asset management.

At the same time that that was happening, American Express was exiting. So as they were exiting, what do they do with this Egyptian company that’s there? 

I brought in ABN AMRO, and they’re five times the size of Egypt. So you can imagine, they came in. So the whole thing was going from one thing to the other.

And then I get a call one day from Mahmoud Mohieldin’s office. He was the investment [minister]—

Patrick FitzPatrick: 2007, 2008.

Neveen El Tahri: Neveen, can I have you sit with somebody from the World Bank? Because they’re doing a report on gender. And I said, gender? What is gender? What is gender?

It was only then.

Patrick FitzPatrick: That’s when you realized you’d done something special.

Neveen El Tahri: Exactly. Can you believe that?

Patrick FitzPatrick: More than a decade later?

You grew up in a foreign affairs family, and in its own way, you know, Kharegeya is regimented. There’s hierarchy, there’s structure. 

You came up in Chase, National Bank of Egypt, CIB — these are very structured, hierarchical institutions. You set out to get institutions as a partner.

But you’re an entrepreneur at heart. And you were trying to use entrepreneurs to build a business that was institutionalized. You helped create venture capital and private equity in the country. You helped create small business investing as an asset—

Neveen El Tahri: A lot of women working with me.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Yeah.

How does somebody from a super hierarchical background, institutional background, become an entrepreneur? Where did that happen?

Neveen El Tahri: I love that question. You know why? Because I keep thinking, why did my father never come back home.

His first post was Sudan. And then when we privatised the Suez Canal, my father was based in Panama. I was supposed to be born there, but my mother wanted to have me in Egypt. My father came with an airplane that was being tested — only my mother and him on that plane to Cairo.

Now, that’s not somebody that is…

Patrick FitzPatrick: So he always liked to take risks and build.

Neveen El Tahri: And then he was based in Lebanon, and Lebanon was the timing of the PLO. And then we went to Finland — socialist country, bla bla bla. And then the UK, London. As Consul, Consul General, which deals with the affairs of every single Egyptian.

And London was the hub. And I saw Abdel Halim Hafez, Faten Hamama — name whoever went to London, they came by our house.

Patrick FitzPatrick: They passed through the embassy, they passed through your home.

Neveen El Tahri: And then we came back to Egypt, and I told them, I have a boyfriend. That was it.

Patrick FitzPatrick: Opa!

Neveen El Tahri: Boyfriend? Taali!

So when you look at his years — and I only came back one year in between those years, that 17 years — he must have been an entrepreneur. He must have been an entrepreneur. Hence that risk taking.

Patrick FitzPatrick: I love it.

Neveen, I hope this is the first of many times we have you on the show. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Neveen El Tahri: Thank you for having me.